• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 It’s just what you do
• 02:51 Motivated for the long-term
• 12:09 The sacrifices of long-term missions
• 19:39 Burnout on the field
• 30:26 Making the needed changes
• 35:35 A warning and advice
• 38:22 The lies we believe

It’s just what you do

My parents’ generation taught them to “Keep your head down. Be silent. Be faithful. It’s not about you. Have a very industrious work ethic.”

It wasn’t about the individual. It was about doing the right thing.

It’s just what you do. You do the right thing.

Motivated for the long-term

I’m motivated by my calling. God called me to go where there is no church. And doing that is what I find strength and joy in.

Jesus said, He who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for service in the kingdom. So just keep going.

It’s not about if this is “aligned with who I am.” Who I am is a child of God who follows Him and does what He wants. It’s not about me. In the current physiology, that’s a negative thing because people don’t have a strong root in their identity, so they really need to “find” that. Whereas the stronger you are in your identity in Christ, the more you can say, “What does God want me to do, and I’ll do that.” There are no other options. That’s who I am, therefore that’s what I do.

How do I keep going over the long haul? Because I know it’s what he’s called me to do, and I delight in doing what he wants. And I’m in him, and until he tells me to do something else, this is what I’m doing.

We don’t want to be doing something just because of momentum. We want to ask, Lord, what do you want us to do? We want our ears to be open to that.

For men, a career change is a frightening thing. Especially a married man. If you shift your career and it fails, what are you going to do? Become a janitor? That can lull you into doing the same thing until the bills are paid and the kids are out of college. How are you gonna get hired when you’re in your 50s and 60s? Those are the kinds of things that are in the back of men’s minds. They don’t necessarily say it, but that’s something that can skew their ability to listen to God and follow him.

What is realistic? How can I find a sense of peace and contentment in what I’m doing?

You have to find contentment. You’re going to have a lot of things in life that you don’t like. It’s not about whether you like it or not; you have to do them.

The sacrifices of long-term missions

God is sovereign, and he redeems the bad things that happen to us.

One of the sacrifices of long-term cross- cultural work is loneliness, especially for men.

I remember my kids saying to me, dad you need friends.

Was I intentional about building relationships that weren’t strictly contingent on worker ministry?

Sometimes we feel like if we’re just hanging out with friends it’s not “intentional,” it’s not “ministry.” 

Think about the things that really do impact your ministry, how you treat people, your connectedness to the Lord, loving him, and loving people.

You’re gonna have people in your life for a short period of time, so just go all in. Make the most of what you have.

Burnout on the field

Burnout is Chronic stress over time, from which you can’t recharge; your recovery time is not enough. Over time, you have a gradual depletion until it reaches burnout. You’ve crashed.

Over a two or three-year period, I found what I was doing was stewing on things, and that adds to the chronic stress. Because you’re stewing you don’t have a break you can stew on it 24/7.

You’re not taking it to the Lord in prayer. You’re not saying, look, this is an untenable position to stay in. You have to find equilibrium; life is up and down. It’s not about life balance. That’s not realistic.

I kept taking on more and more things, and at some point, I realized I was burning out.

One of the vicious cycles of burnout is that you take on things to compensate for the areas you’re failing in. It’s like a coping mechanism.

You take something new on to have a success in that to compensate for the failure in this other thing. But the reason why you’re failing is because you’re taking on too much. But then you take on more.

You get to a point where your judgment is wrecked.

People’s experience of you is dropping the ball, disappointment, not following through on your word, and it just piles up, and it becomes a monster.

It’s not just, oh, I’m tired because last week was tough, or I have this one thing that’s really nagging me. No, there’s a lot of stuff that’s been piling up over time.

My dad knew that was what needed to be done and that it was the best thing for the family. Whatever he was feeling was going to result in the family losing faith, being anxious, you can imagine.

You’re going to need to express your feelings more often if your identity isn’t grounded in Christ. Being solid in your identity in Christ can abate the need for having to get so much affirmation all the time about everything.

Our identity in Christ strengthens our resilience in the face of challenges. And as a byproduct, you don’t necessarily need to say everything you’re feeling if you’re not feeling that great, because you fall back on, who am I in Christ.

Making the needed changes

I was concerned about really losing it, being down for the count. This wasn’t just burnout, like I need to take a break, this is like, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to mentally recover. It’s that bad.

You can get a physical injury, and you limp for life; it was that kind of thing, mentally and emotionally. My capacity in energy level would be truncated. It would be shot. It’d be taken down, and I wouldn’t be able to recover.

When COVID hit, I was sitting in the backyard. Thanking God that I don’t have to do anything. I’m just watching the weeds grow. Literally watching the weeds grow. I’m not having the ability to think or think too much of anything.

For the next three summers of going back to my home country, I intentionally did a home assignment in a way that gave me margin during my week.

Every year, there was a progressive increase in my capacity to think better. But it took a solid three years to feel like I was back.

My knee-jerk reaction is to help, which is fine, but not when you’re burning out.

A warning and advice

If it’s a man, I scare them. I said look, dude, if you do this, you’re going to be out. You’re not gonna be able to be here doing what you want to do. It can damage your health to the point where your ram level is no longer 100% it’s like 70% and it stays like that for the rest of your life.

You need to think long and hard, are you gonna take this seriously and get healthy, or not?

If your spouse is burning out, you need to make sure you’re making choices that help them. You make the sacrifice, so your spouse can get what’s needed.

The lies we believe

Statistically, the stress level for cross-cultural workers is way higher than for the average person.

“The original 1967-1970 study found that if a person reached a level of 200 on the scale in a single year, the cumulative stress would have long-term implications. In fact, they discovered that fifty percent of individuals who reached this level were hospitalized within two years. The consequences included heart attacks, diabetes, cancer, and other serious illnesses. If a person reached a level of 300, they were almost sure to end up in the hospital. In 1999, Christian doctors Lois and Larry Dodds of Heartstream Resources began to study the levels of stress on the mission field using a modified version of the Holmes-Rahe Stress Scale. First-term missionaries were found to have scores peaking at a whopping 900, while veterans maintained 600-plus year after year. Remember, according to the research, people with a score above 200 were likely to have severe, long-term health problems within two years. The evidence clearly demonstrated that the “normalcy” of the missionary lifestyle is three times higher than the average “danger level” of stress.” – The Mind of a Missionary page 292

Spiritually, in the background, there’s the grace of God to enable us to do what we are called to do.

Things that are in our control are whether we are aware, whether we are trying to overcompensate for our feelings of failure or inadequacy, or whether we are not fulfilling our calling? And are we taking on other things to make us feel better about ourselves, without really being conscious of that?

Are we dealing with the cognitive dissonance of the underlying failure feeling because I’m not fulfilling my calling? Does that just sit in the back of your mind unconsciously and nag?

We have no idea the level of cortisol shooting through our bodies because of the level of stress we have on the field. And it’s not just the amount of stress, but it’s the inability to recover from that stress that is the problem.

If you’re really struggling and you feel like you’re burning out, you need to talk to somebody who has responsibility in your life who you will listen to, so you can make some changes to help you get better.

Whatever I’m anxious or worried about to make sure I’m taking that thing specifically to the Lord in prayer. Be really honest with God about what you’re stressed about and how you need help, what change you need, and bring that to the Lord.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Hearing about missions
• 07:55 Missions in the 1970s communism
• 15:00 When Communism fell
• 18:44 When prayers are answered
• 23:42 The lack of awareness today
• 32:04 Longevity on the field
• 38:24 Building resilienc
• 42:00 Confirming your calling

Hearing about missions

I’ll never forget George Verwer talking about the word “dichotomy,” how there is a dichotomy between what we say we believe and how we actually live it out. And then he challenged us all to go out and get involved in missions.

At the end of the summer of 1969, there were five of us left, and we went out one last time distributing Bibles. And we were arrested one time. That summer, I was arrested 11 times. And that last time we were given a five-year sentence in prison.

In our cell was a big, burly man we called “the bear” who, in a fit of rage, had killed five people with an ax. As we shared the Gospel with him, he wept for his sin. I’ll never forget him saying that in Islam, there is no forgiveness for sin; there is only the weighing of your good deeds against your bad deeds. He said, “I know going to hell. I have no hope.” As we shared the Gospel about Jesus dying for our sin, and that there is forgiveness before God, he wept for his sin.

Six months later, that city was struck by a massive earthquake, and that prison was flattened. I’ve never forgotten his tears and God’s sense of timing.

For ten years, I worked in Vienna building smuggling vehicles to smuggle Bibles behind the Iron Curtain.

Our team gave my wife and I a double sleeping bag as our wedding gift.

Missions in 1970 communism

It was all a very confrontational time between the West and the Communist countries.

We didn’t talk politics; we talked Jesus.

The evil one is out to destroy. And when you think of the communist countries, it was all about the Church, and the Bible was seen as enemy number two; number one would be America and the West.

The Bible and the Church; anything Christian was seen as the primary enemy.

It was illegal to educate a child under 18 years old about anything from the Bible or the Christian faith.

Christians learned to live a double life: the public life and their private life. There was no trust.

There were Christians and pastors who were prepared to live secretly and preach the Gospel secretly.

Most of the leaders of the Reformed Baptists had been in prison for eight to 20 years. Many of the leaders would live in total secrecy. They had no public identity at all and would live in hiding their whole life so they could lead their church.

Sunday school material was illegal.

When Communism Fell

When governments began to loosen up, we went out with our teams and began preaching the Gospel openly on the streets.

We had done a lot of work in Romania. We said, “Now there is openness. We are going to go out and take Bibles openly and preach the Gospel.” So we sent team after team there.

As I look back on that, I didn’t realize what I was sending people into at the time.

We always said, “When is it time to preach the Gospel?” It’s time to preach the Gospel when things are breaking open. You need to strike while the iron is hot.

When prayers are answered

We had been praying for what all that God would do over all those years. We were fasting and praying regularly for the believers in Eastern Europe. When everything broke open, we said, Ok, are going to trust the Lord?

It was an amazing time. It was a book of Acts time.

It’s a time when you have to watch what the Holy Spirit is doing and be prepared to get involved, even when it means some danger.

From 1983 to 1989, we were smuggling 40 to 60 thousand Bibles at one time.

We wanted to see the Lord moving.

God was moving. God was giving us opportunities that were just mind-boggling. When everything broke open, we needed to be prepared to move.

1989 was the first Love Europe campaign. We bought five old buses for next to nothing and sent teams all over Eastern Europe. It was a book of Acts time.

Albania had been declared a fully atheist country.

We were out distributing Bibles, and people were flocking in to get them.

The Lack of Awareness Today

There is so little awareness of what God is doing around the world. There is such self-centeredness in the church.

What we are doing in our mission organizations around the world is super, but I don’t understand why there isn’t a bigger impact on the church.

It’s our responsibility to share with our churches back home what God is doing around the world. What God is doing in China, Iran, or North Africa. We need to know that and be prepared to get involved to send our young people to get involved in what God is doing around the world.

There is too much superficiality in the church today. There is a huge need for discipleship, which takes people beneath the surface and looks at what God is doing around the world.

We need to be reminded that we are not living in a nice, comfortable world where everything is going great. We are living in a war.

The fall of the communist governments did not mean that Satan is not vanquished.   

Some of those very churches we used to smuggle Bibles into are now becoming complacent.

We have very little understanding of what God is doing around the world, and no sense of responsibility.

The church in the West is consumed with pragmatism. Pragmatism says that the value of a thing is seen in its results. It’s a results-oriented approach to see what God is doing.

The problem with long-term commitment is pragmatism, which measures everything by its results. Well, if there are no results, what’s the value of it?

We were smuggling Bibles for 25 years and never had the opportunity to share the Gospel except for the few times when we were arrested.

You have to look at what God is doing in the long-term. You can’t be preoccupied with the immediate issue at hand. You have to be faithful to what God is doing in the long-term.

You have to be prepared to get involved where it’s taught.

**Polycarp was the pastor of Smyrna, not Ephesus

St Ignatius’ advice to Polycarp in 110 AD

“Focus on unity, for there is nothing better. Bear with all people, even as the Lord bears with you; endure all in love, just as you now do. Devote yourselves to unceasing prayers; ask for greater understanding than you have. Keep alert with an unresting spirit. Speak to the people individually, in accordance with God’s example. Bear the diseases of all, as a perfect athlete. Where there is more work, there is much gain. If you love good disciples, it is no credit to you; rather with gentleness bring the more troublesome ones into submission. Not every wound is healed by the same treatment…the time needs you (as pilots need winds and as a storms-tossed sailor needs a harbor) in order to reach God. Be sober, as God’s athlete; the praise is incorruptibility and eternal life.”

**The Great Persecution from 249-251, under Emperor Decius, created the Lapsarian Controversy over whether or not followers of Jesus who denied their faith in order to preserve their lives should be welcomed back into full fellowship with the church.

The problem with friendship evangelism is, when do you actually share the Gospel? You spend all your time building relationships, but you never actually get to the point of sharing the Gospel.

What we need is people who are willing to suffer for the Gospel.

Longevity on the field

To stay long-term in the field, you need perseverance and endurance.

We need to learn how to persevere through the tough times. I went through depression. I went through burnout. I went through a major division in our mission team. I went through all kinds of problems with our children. One of our adopted girls was selling herself out of the back of a car in Germany. What takes you through to perseverance in those times? You need to know your calling, and you need to know you are in a battle.

The call to a particular ministry might end, but not God’s call on my life to minister.

Over the years, you need to learn how to increasingly move back into your primary calling.

There is little follow-through to help leaders know what to do next after they no longer have their leadership positions.

Sometimes, once leaders lose their position, they feel like they have been abandoned.

Building resilience

The key to resilience is having the attitude of a growing, developing person.

One problem we face in missions is that we can squeeze our people dry like a sponge.

You have to have a long-term attitude.  Who do I want to be in five years? What do I want to do in ten years’ time? How do I need to develop? Develop myself. Develop my giftings. Develop my calling.

If you believe God has called you to long-term missions, you need to develop your gifts and calling.

You need to ask, How is God moving me? And if you’re married, you also need to ask, “How is God moving my wife?”

Confirming your calling

In my church in the West, there is no sense of the need.

Part of knowing your calling is knowing how God has gifted you.

Calling also means confirmation from your leaders and the people around you. People see that your calling is being confirmed.

There were some people whom we felt God was calling them to leave. But there were far more people left who we felt could have had a valuable ministry.

I would appeal to them and say, “This is not the time to leave. This is the time to move and get involved.”

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Called by the need
• 05:55 Learning to evangelize
• 12:00 Language and evangelism
• 20:05 How to gauge success
• 24:00 How things are changing
• 34:16 The Nine Studies

Called by the need

There was this one statistic that caught our attention the most: how many inhabitants there are per Christian worker. Normally, there were five to 10 thousand people per Christian worker, until we came to the Arab world, and the ratio was 1 million to one. So that was our decision.

There were very few Muslims Background Believers around, so we all tried our best to share the Good News. Frustration was rare, very, very, very rare.

We tried to share our lives as radically as we could with those we wanted to reach. Which meant that we would live as simply as possible to be on the same living standard. Through that, we were able to build very deep trusting relationships. But still, by and large, openness towards the Gospel was far, far lower than today.

Arabs are very polite; they may think a lot of things, but don’t tell you right away.

Learning to evangelize

For poor people, where things hinge on whether you make it through the next day or not, there is zero patience with young believers for theories.

It was challenging, but challenging in a very good way.

One thing that unnerved me as we tried to share the Gospel in the beginning was to see that there were people who were very willing and open to listen to me, and they couldn’t understand what I was trying to say, even though my Arabic wasn’t that bad. They couldn’t understand the concepts I was trying to get across.

As you try to share the Gospel with people who are radically different from you in culture and lifestyle, step by step, you get stripped of the cultural additions that you carry with you from your church background until you only have the Gospel left over.

About 80% of what I thought I needed to be communicated had to go.

We had a rule on our team; we were forbidden to read books about Islam and instead had to go out and ask Muslims questions. We had dozens and dozens of questions that we would go around and ask Muslims.

What does it help me if I am a specialist in the Quran and official Islam, if my neighbors have maybe 10% of my knowledge about the Quran and actually follow totally different principles and rules, and are more concerned about the evil eye and the latest blessing or cures put upon them?

Language and evangelism

When you come into a new culture, you should just assume that what is going on is neutral and not evil. You can judge later, but not in the beginning.

We do very well listening and observing carefully and sharing the Good News in a way that speaks to the heart of the people in their way of thinking and in their culture.

In the West, if you want to be respectable and convincing, you need to be intellectual and calm; this is the exact opposite for Arab Muslims.

There was quite a percentage of people who never made it to a level where they could touch Arabs on a deep heart level, language wise. Which limits you very greatly. Today, I sense that the focus on language is actually dropping big time.

Sometimes the most unlikely people have a big, big impact.

How to gauge success

First, I have to admit that the lack of fruit was, on several levels, emotionally a major challenge.

We often would say our biggest emotional enemy is discouragement. It was not easy, I have to admit.

I would take every little  step that someone took towards Christ or every little baby step in discipleship as success, no matter how small it was.

Generally speaking, I think about fruit in three deletions The width is the number of those who come to faith. The depth is the depth of changed lives; the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I don’t count biblical knowledge, but I count changed lives. The length would be how long the whole thing lasts. I don’t know how it is today, but in our days, 80% of believers returned to Islam.

These kinds of stories of changed lives bring me to tears.

How things are changing

Because there are increasing numbers of Arab Muslims coming to the Lord, our role changes and our focus changes. I will never say let’s stop evangelizing, but the role of discipleship and healthy discipleship becomes really important.

Sometimes I feel like we have a little bit of a lack of respect for the Arabs around us. But now, with an increasing number of MBBs, I think we cannot just continue to work in the way we used to. The focus has to be to encourage, to empower, and to support Muslim Background Believers to go forward and share the Good News and start churches.

MBBs have to deal with massive issues in discipleship, spiritually speaking, but so do we, by the way.

There is the deep-seated mentality of, “Oh, they are not there yet, let’s keep them low. Let’s not encourage them to do anything or to take responsibility, essentially not leadership.”

I consider myself far beyond average when it comes to language and culture understanding, and Islam, and I still think that a well-equipped MBB will be 100% more fruitful than I will ever be.

He said to me, “Do you know what, I am a believer since the end of the 80s and I’ve met dozens and hundreds of foreign missionaries, you are the first one who actually trusts and respects me.”

I have been terribly disappointed, but that can never stop us from giving trust and respect to MBBs.

Distrust is almost like an atmosphere, like a blanket over the region, and there are reasons for it, but it kills discipleship.

Trust is contagious. If I trust and show trust, it changes the person in front of me already. We want to openly talk about it openly with MBBs, how destructive distrust is. And you can’t make someone else trustworthy, but you can yourself be trustworthy.

It’s important not to gossip, but I it’s also important to never listen to gossip.

The Nine Studies

I got a hold of a book called “From Creation to Christ.” It explained that instead of trying to give your Gospel presentation like you’re used to doing, why don’t you do it the way the Bible does it; start at the very beginning and go to the end.

There are so many things missing in for the Muslims, that if we don’t build carefully step by step then they will miss out.

I liked the book, but 50 studies were way too many. I thought maybe three or four studies would work, I ended up pushing it to nine studies. I chose stories that are in part already known to Muslims so that we start on common ground.

We can’t really share the Good News about Jesus Christ without laying the foundation of the Old Testament. It was a great tool in our hands to help us share the Gospel in a way that makes sense for Muslims.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 I must be involved in missions!
• 07:27 Leaving the ship’s ministry
• 10:31 Insights into recruiting
• 14:16 Living in the Middle East
• 18:18 Leaving the Middle East early
• 25:00 What is Christian Nationalism?
• 32:12 A definition of Christian Nationalism
• 39:36 Christian Nationalism’s effect on missions

I must be involved in missions!

It was the first time that someone had gone through the Bible and walked through all the logic and the theology of how God‘s heart is to reach the nations. And you can see through history God doing that. And I said, Why has no one ever told me this before? I need to be involved somehow.

George Verwer challenged everyone to commit to two years to cross-cultural service and to stand up. And I stood up at the time. And he also mentioned that they had this ship ministry, and I thought maybe I could work in the engine room.

In some ways to this day, I’m still debriefing my time on the ship.

Fish don’t realize they’re wet. Growing up in my home country and then leaving for five years and living in an international context, you start looking at your home country in a different way, evaluating the good and the bad, or before you wouldn’t even necessarily think to evaluate those things.

After I did the perspectives course, I walked away and thought, how can I not be involved?

Leaving the ship’s ministry

In many ways, the ship’s ministry is a young person’s thing. It’s an incredible training program.

I wanted to take some of the things I learned and apply it to other areas.

We would go to some of these state schools and go to some of these in varsity or Cru meetings, and I would meet the students, and I was like, wow, these guys, because they live in an environment that’s not Christian, they are forced to think through their faith more quickly, how would it apply to their life, what does that mean for their relationships? They knew their Bible. They were on fire.

At the Christian school, I went to, you didn’t have to really work at your faith, we were just all Christians.

Insights into recruiting

In the newer generations, there’s less interest in the standard missions model of raising support and being sent out, but there is more of a desire for tent-making, taking your job and getting employed, and living a more normal life in relation to people.

Some Christian schools have actually closed their missions departments because no one is signing up for them.

Living in the Middle East

When we got married, we thought it would be good. It’d be great if we as a married couple could have some cross-cultural missions experience together.

So fairly early on, we decided where we could serve for a number of years.

Although we enjoyed it, living in the Middle East was probably the most stressful time of our lives.

In normal life, there’s always kind of a baseline stress, you know, just daily life. Then maybe there’s some health crisis that adds stress. There are kind of levels of stress. But then when we move to the Middle East, you shift everything up at least a level. So baseline is always a bit more stressful. And then when you have a real crisis, it’s like oh my goodness!

My wife had a doctor’s appointment. We needed to get to the hospital. And it was pouring down and we lived on the side of a mountain and we were going through crazy traffic. I could barely see through the windshield wipers and I had a breakdown. I had to pull over on the side of the street and have a cry. I said, “I can’t do this. We need to turn around and go home.”

I learned to navigate the city we lived in without taking left turns.

Leaving the Middle East early

We realized that doing that particular role was not going to help us thrive in the long term.

I had my engineering background and what we were doing was not very engineering.

Definitely now I feel much more fulfilled in a sense in my gifting and in what I’m able to contribute to the kingdom.

Things weren’t totally what we expected, and we were doing good stuff, but could things be different? Is this really the best fit for us?

We weren’t at a burnout level, but we could see it’s coming.

For us, we had a very small community of people. It was a bit isolating, it was a bit lonely. And we weren’t sure if this was healthy or good for us in the long term.

What is Christian Nationalism?

In many ways growing up, I had a Christian Nationalist lite world view to a degree.

As I was watching it, I thought this felt a bit off, and I didn’t know how to put my finger on it.

When I had been on the ship ministry, you had a group of 300 people from 50 different nations and we would do the same thing, we would use our nationalities to attract people to an event where we could proclaim Christ, but the difference was we were celebrating all of our nationalities on equal footing, and it was secondary to pointing into Jesus. But in my home country, it was like who’s the focus? Is this a political rally or a Jesus thing?

If you believe that America is a Christian nation and that the government has a role in keeping it that way, that is a simple version of what Christian nationalism is.

There’s a kind of synchronism happening in this country. There’s a blending of the Christian faith and the secular state.

There’s a mixing of the Christian faith in the secular state.

Christian nationalism is a form of the prosperity gospel. The prosperity gospel says if I just pray the right prayer and get my act together, then God’s going to bless me with what I want. God is simply a means to an end. And we see that today with Christian nationalism, if we just elect the right people, if we just enact the right laws, God’s going to bless our nation with prosperity.

God becomes a means to an end.

A definition of Christian Nationalism 

A definition of what a Christian nationalist might say is, they would say something like, it’s a call for Christians to uniquely shape national law according to biblical principles, recognizing a shared heritage, and pursuing communal flourishing within a specific nation, aiming for a virtuous society under God‘s general laws.

I think the aims are a good thing, promoting Jesus, but I think that means Christian nationalism is a problem.

Jesus said I’m going to win the nations through sacrifice and humility, I’m not going to dominate them.

The Jews were looking to Jesus to make Israel great again. When it became obvious that Jesus was not interested in establishing that kind of kingdom, when Pilate said, “Do you want Jesus or Barabbas?” they cried out for Barabbas.

Why would they have the same kind of morality that we do when they are not regenerate and they’re not trying to follow Jesus?

Christian Nationalism’s effect on missions

Going back to George Verwer, one of the main themes in his books is surrendering your rights, and then the current climate there’s this idea that we need to keep our rights so much so that we need to push out other people and trample on other people in order to maintain our rights. Which I would say is contrary to the gospel.

I hear all the time how the church is under attack and we’re being persecuted, but I have friends who have literally been beaten up for their faith. We hear at most we’re being annoyed, we’re not really being persecuted.

There’s no way of salt and light when we look like everyone else.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 A massive transition
• 08:34 Helping Westerners reach their Muslim neighbors
• 13:31 Know what you believe!
• 21:36 Seeing immigrants as a mission field
• 30:05 How being cross-cultural helps you minister back home
• 36:57 The challenges of being missional

A massive transition

The first episode I had with today’s guest is episode #5 Twelve Years A Missionary.

The changes were making our heads spin.

We were weighing our bags to head back to the Middle East when the doctor said there was something not right with our newborn son’s head. They did an X-ray and realized that he needed to have major surgery on his skull. It was such a shock to us and was very disorienting. We didn’t know where to live. We didn’t know what treatment was going to look like.

During that time, we kept thinking about what was around us and not as much about what we were going back to.

We were in the midst of a global city, with people coming from all over the world, all the time, starting businesses and studying on college campuses. We would hear from our friends, “There are so many people here from all over the world. What do we do?”

At a prayer meeting, a guy gave a presentation and said, “Missions everywhere to everywhere.” The Holy Spirit used that in a very profound way that day. What about all your experience overseas? How could you use that right here?

Both my wife and I didn’t have a desire to go back. For me, it was conflicting, but for my wife, it was pretty straightforward.

There are people from all over the world right here. There are people from some of the hardest places in the world to send people to, and they’re sitting at my table right here.

Helping Westerners reach their Muslim neighbors

From somebody saying, What can I do, to actually doing something is huge and something that we celebrate.

She asked us what we should do to meet that Muslim lady at the park, and my wife gave a very simple answer that was more profound than she realized at the time. She just said, go and say hello to her.

We want to have conversations that go beyond asking questions about what food is like in your country. We want actually to talk about real things.

It’s not easy to be the aroma of Christ and salt and light to the world, but it’s very much worth it.

Know what you believe!

How do we get young people to engage with a very changing world around them?

We realized that when we were putting that program together, one of the first things we needed to start with was the Bible. The story of the Bible. This is our great story. This is our great God and King. And the whole scope of scripture sings this story.

The True Story of Reality

Not only do we identify the error in their story, but that gives us an opportunity to share God’s story with them.

I studied biblical theology, and I find it so wonderful to be able to bring that into evangelism.

Equipping the church is a very important feature of engaging Islam, of engaging the people around us. We have to know where we’re coming from.

Seeing immigrants as a mission field

We wrestle with the fact that the paradigm is still that the mission field is over there, not here.

We have to think of it as both, we send people far away, and we are sent people here. We are missional whether we are here or there.

The challenge is to see this not as these people taking over our neighborhoods, but as God bringing the nations to our doorstep.

Our natural reactions are fear, anger, fascination, and apathy. That’s what we tend to want to do.

We were in a park where our fishing opportunity could’ve been a little more oriented to them.

More often than not, when you do actually approach somebody with a spiritual intention, their responses are quite often warm, and they are quite often willing to engage and talk about this stuff.

We’ve had very little pushback in the way you might think we would have pushback.

I think our biggest challenge is what do we do? We want to do something. We see this happening. We hear about these things happening. What do we do?

This leader of a mosque was born and raised in America and knew almost nothing about Christianity.

How being cross-cultural helps you minister back home

It gives us so much understanding and compassion for people who have left everything and are in a totally new setting. I don’t know the language, and I’m trying so hard to learn it.

Having lived in the East, you learn to be flexible and not expect everything to go according to plan.

Helping our children see that there is great value in trying to understand other people.

God is using his people as tools in his hand to proclaim his love for all people.

The challenges of being missional

The people who were born and raised in these places where there is a massive transformation of culture find it very challenging. We have to give recognition to the fact that there is sacrifice involved in thanking missionally.

Instead of seeing these people as invaders of our communities, we have to see that God and his sovereignty have brought these people to us. This is our opportunity.

It’s not always going to be easy, and it’s gonna take a lot of time.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Being the son of missionaries
• 05:56 The pressures on a MK
• 10:44 Getting drawn into cross-cultural work
• 23:07 Rhythms of Spiritual health
• 27:53 Beginning the process of bible translation
• 33:50 Translating for Oral cultures

Being the son of missionaries 

As a child, it was just life as usual. I didn’t know any better. Until I turned about thirteen. Then  I was like, “I would like to have a forever home. I would like to stop moving.”

I love both my passport country and the country I grew up in equally. 

I always wanted to blend in. I always wanted to be excepted by my pears. But I was always fiercely proud of what I had learned in the other country and I wasn’t afraid to mention it. 

I didn’t find out what a TCK was until I went to collage. 

The pressures on a MK

I remember growing up feeling like I had to be perfect. My dad made me feel like the families reputation rested on me. 

There is a great book called, “I have to perfect. And other parsonage heresies.”

One of the heresies is, “I can ruin my dad’s ministry by having hair that’s too long.”

It makes the kid feel like, I’m here for others. I have no rights for myself. I’m here to serve the world. Which is a lot of pressure. 

Becoming independent is an important part of growing up. A lot of ministry parents try to continue to control their kids past a certain age. 

Getting drawn into cross-cultural work 

I felt led towards the field, but I thought, “I’m not going to do what my parents did. I want to have a real job.” 

I had become agnostic and had no idea what truth was. I spent three years of that time seeking. 

I grew up in a Christian community. I was given all the answers. I thought I knew everything. But then my seiner year of high school, we moved to a new city; a large school. I became a small fish in a big pond. There was a lot of intellectual backlash against Christianity, Christian belief, and Christ thought. I began to feel like, “Oh, the only reason I believe this is because  my parents told me what to believe, and I don’t think that’s a good reason any more. 

After having tried to refute the bible, I feel in love with it. 

I choose what was familiar, but also what I had become convinced of intellectually. I say “intellectually,” because my actual faith didn’t begin until years later, when I was on the field. 

I was on the field, serving God, and I hated it. I thought I had ruined my life. I thought I had thrown it away, that I had made the wrong decision, that I had missed out on better opportunities. 

I took Daniel’s example and started praying three times a day. “God, if you’re there, please help me.” And that’s when God met me; he found me. 

I started off in the work thinking, I just need a task to fulfill. I don’t want to be a missionary, I just want a job. I want a task. So bible translation, that fits. But then I started caring about people, and it wasn’t about the job any more, it was about building community and spreading God’s love to people. It was a life-changer and a game-changer for the work. 

Rhythms of Spiritual health 

Getting into God’s word is part of my daily routine, but it’s not a legalistic thing, like, I have to to it today or my life is over. Making it part of my daily routine really sets the pace. It does make my day better, but if I miss it for a day, for some reason, I don’t feel awful. Like, oh no, I’m separated from God. 

I also need regular interaction with godly friends. 

Quiet time with God. Quality time with likeminded friends. Times of rest. Take a vacation.  

Beginning the process of bible translation 

What is their language attitude? The first question you have to ask is, Do they want this? If you go in as a foreigner and say, You need this. Let us give it to you. They will say, thank you, put it on a shelf and worship it. 

Once you know the people want a bible in their language, you have to look at language vitality; how many people speak the language? 

The reason we do bible translation is so the bible can be understood, because we believe in a God who wants a relationship with us, who communicated to us through this word, and he can be known. 

The language you grew up speaking to your mother is more likely to touch your heart than a language you studied in school. 

Translating for Oral cultures 

There is a scale between literacy and orality. Everywhere along that scale people do interact with text to some extent. 

When you translate the Bible, you ask, who is the audience and where are they on the literacy/orality scale? 

When you translate the first translation into a language that has never had it before, it’s best to go a little more literal, because they can take that then, and do a revision that is less literal and more meaning bast. But you can’t take a more meaning bast and take that and move into a more literally translation. 

What you look translator, you aim at being clear, accurate, nature, and acceptable. 

The goal has always been for people to understand.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Getting involved in missions
• 07:30 Learning language
• 10:30 Figuring out kids education
• 15:05 Changes over the years
• 18:07 Suffering for Christ
• 21:07 Coming back to the field as a single
• 24:10 MBBs and money
• 31:18 Protecting yourself from cynicism
• 33:56 Processing the death of a spouse
• 38:45 Moving back to the field at 70

Getting involved in missions

Any cross-cultural organization will ask you, “How are you involved in cross-cultural work?”

God’s at work even though I’ve been asleep.

On the second date, I gave her six books on cross-cultural work and six books on marriage. I was not backward.

I would read avidly missionary biographies, but I would also read stories of people coming to faith from a majority background and be really excited about that. That seemed to be resonating with my heart.

When you get to the Middle East, you fall in love with the Middle East. They are so beautiful. Life is so chaotic. Nothing happens as you think it should happen, but people are so hospitable and loving. It’s so eager for you to learn Arabic that we never made it beyond the Middle East.

Learning Language

Our organization has always said that we would like you to spend two years on solid language learning.

I would elicit language material from all the friends I met on the street. I would have a dice and I would have six questions. I would say roll the dice, they would roll the dice, and I would say, “Ah, question three!” Then I would ask the question, and that would open up so much vocabulary I their answer.

We had the whole interrogation process through an interpreter, which really takes the heat off of us.

Figuring out kids’ education

A car backed onto my foot, and I beat it off. And there was my foot with a tire mark on my shoe. And I said to God, “Why did you let that happen?” And God said, “When do you push on someone’s foot?” And I knew God wanted me to keep listening.

We worked with our mission organization to see how our kids were coping. We came to the conclusion that they would be much better off in the missionary kids school, specifically the TCK school in Europe.

Both of our kids had the last four years of their schooling in the TCK school in Europe. Which was top drawer. All the teachers were workers. They really celebrated the kids’ home countries and the countries that they had lived in before.

Our children had to learn the dominant accent they learned at TCK school so they could fit in accent wise when they went back to our home country.

Changes over the years

Amongst workers, there was a good sense of cooperation. A limited number of workers in a country would mean that we would get together and pray. We still do that today, that’s great. That’s something we haven’t lost.

There has been a positive emphasis on small-group Bible discovery.

It would break your heart back when people would learn the language and then go, “Yeah, this isn’t for me.” And you would think, oh, but you’re so gifted, why don’t you stick around?”

In the 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s, we would rejoice because there was a believer in this town or a believer in that town. And now we have small groups of believers from a majority background studying the Bible together and growing together. And God has been doing an amazing thing.

Suffering for Christ

The teaching is on how to suffer. How to stand up for your faith in the midst of persecution.

The persecuted church is a prophetic voice to the church in the West, saying, “Wake up, guys. You’re not there just to serve yourself. It’s not happy clappy, let’s get a warm feeling. It’s to live for Jesus, whatever the cost.

The incidents of suffering are so much more now.

The challenge for the churches is to be a family to people who come out and say, “I want to follow Jesus, I want to live for Jesus.”

Coming back to the field as a single

My wife died three years ago of cancer. I haven’t come as part of a family; I’m in this odd category for local friends. They don’t quite know where to put me.

I rarely get invited into a Muslim’s home because I’m a risk.

I wanted to show love in that context, to the whole family. So I brought some handmade soap. And said to him, “This is for your wife.” And then when I went back for my daughter‘s wedding, she sent some cosmetics back with me for my daughter. So there was a connection.

MBBs and Money

We have thousands of people in the debtor’s prison here. So how can I care for my friend who’s struggling with death without creating dependency?

I give to somebody, who gives to someone, who gives to him anonymously.

“We don’t actually give loans, but this is how much money we can give you. It’s a gift.” And it’s always less than what they ask for. “It’s a gift and we don’t want you to return it to us.”

We stressed that it’s God’s money, it’s not our money.

Giving anonymously is trying to protect both of us from dependency.

As a team, we struggle with how to help these families, because their situations are critical financially.

I’m always looking for ways to give anonymously.

A friend, an experienced cross-cultural worker, said to me, “I decided that if my heart grows hard, it’s time for me to come home.”

Protecting yourself from cynicism

The spirit of God in you brings to mind when you become cynical. When I’m starting to talk, “Oh, this place is dusty and dirty,” and that’s the framework through which I see this place. Then I need to release it before God.

I’m here because it’s dusty and dirty.

It’s a small step towards saying ‘I love you.’ I was there for you in a difficult situation.

Processing the death of a spouse

The specialist said, “We have bad news for you, it’s stage four lung cancer.”

The hardest part is waiting. You wait for a diagnosis, and then you wait for a treatment regimen. These can be weights of months.

My wife adopted a mantra of always being thankful and always asking, What can I be thankful for today?

She was so easy to care for because she was always grateful and said ‘thank you’ frequently.

Before she died, she said to me, “I never thought you could care for me as you have.”

You dive into God because that’s all you have to dive into.

I’m not convincingly single for the rest of my days, but I want to be happy in Jesus for the stage of life.

There are times that I look at her photo and I say, “Why God, why?

Moving back to the field at 70

The team was praying, “Lord, send men”. One and seven cross-cultural workers as a man.

Men aren’t dealing with their stuff, like their addictions, like alcohol and porn.

We all wrestle with his issues, but we need to establish accountability and transparency. We need to bring those things to Jesus and have him deal with our inner turmoil.

Go to the hard place and you’ll find some workers. Go to the most challenging places, and you’ll find a group of women.

I had a sense that I was doing the same thing again, and again, and again. How am I growing? How am I gonna keep growing if I keep doing the same things over and over?

I can’t be praying for workers if I’m not willing to go myself.

I didn’t know how God was going to use me, but I wanted to be obedient and step forward, and be that place where he can use me.

God is calling locals to stay, and we need to be staying beside them.

I prayed for a ground-floor flat with a garden, but I got a top-floor flat with a view.

Some people will never be able to go, but they can give.

I have more than 100 people praying for me on every turn and twist.

God calls, and he equips. He doesn’t call you to something and then just leave you there.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Faith. Marriage. Missions 
• 06:45 Going local in Asia
• 12:20 Dealing contention in marriage
• 14:07 Advice to self: Enjoy your family
• 18:48 Doing business in the Arab World
• 26:40 The comparison trap
• 34:04 Thinking about holistic health on the field
• 41:43 Stress Mangement
• 47:53 Recreation

Faith. Marriage. Missions

I worked in business, in advertising and marketing, and I loved it. It was a good fit for me. But I always had in the back of my mind, “How can I do this cross-culturally?”

My missions pastor said, “You are so gung ho, but you don’t know the scriptures very well, so I suggest you go to seminary.”

We had a blind date from God. It was instant connection. And we were married nine months later.

That was really tough. Coming from a divorced family, coming from a you gotta make your own way, you gotta save your own money, you’ve gotta become somebody important. You have to take care of yourself because no one else is going to take care of you. To follow my husband into missions was a new idea, even if I didn’t feel the call.

God gave me the heart to follow, and God gave me the heart to go.

I’ve always thought that I would be buried abroad. I’m not going back. This is my earthly home.

You’re all in. There is no plan B.

Going local in Asia

What I liked about my professors was that they were practical. It was about cross-cultural communication, and I learned the concept of you be all things to all people. So I went local. I really went local. I dressed, I covered, I was almost fluent in the language. I did it all. I looked like they did.

I went so far into the culture that one time I told another cross-cultural worker that she was insane because she wasn’t covering her head. And as I heard the words coming out of my mouth, I said Oh Lord, I’ve gone too far. I’ve gone too far.

I was trying to fit in, but I didn’t fit in, and that’s why I suffered so much.

I will say, at the time, it felt like a men’s club. It was heard that my value as a business entrepreneur, as a businessperson, as a marketing expert – it was like, “Oh, will you teach us what you know so we can do it?” but not really involving me.

I was culturally very far away from my host community.

My supervisor came up to me and said, “Hey, you’re not doing well.” The exact wording was, “You’re dying on the vine.”

It was harder for my husband to see [that I was suffering] because this was his whole life, this people group, this vision. What do you do with that when you have a wife who isn’t doing well?

When we were asked to leave the country, for me, it felt like God finally sees me.

We’re not called to a people, we’re called to serve and honor God. People change, but God doesn’t change. If I’m all in with God, then these other things aren’t gonna have such a devastating effect on me.

It’s not the place. It’s not the people. It’s about God.

Dealing with contention in marriage

It was an area of contention, but the process that needed to happen was on my part and on his part individually.

We got counseling, we went to another Asian country that’s known for their counseling, and we had three or four months of soul time.

Advice to self: Enjoy your family

My supervisor said to me, “You need to sit here and enjoy your girls. Enjoy your kids. Enjoy them.”

Put all of your energy, as much as is appropriate, and into enjoying your kids now.

As a mother, I was headed to not being fully in involved with my kids.

In my family of origin, that wasn’t modeled to me. Or it was modeled, put everything into your kids, and ignore your spouse.

But also, I would say to myself, as a type-A person, if you want to start a business, just do it. If you want to stay home and make pies, stay home and make pies.

Women have been pushed into two camps: either you stay home and your home is your ministry, or you go out and the outside is your ministry.

To think that if we totally contextualize with the local people, it means that we don’t rely on God, and relying on God is when the magic happens. That is when the conversation happens. That is when you hand in the Bible. That’s when the Bible verse comes to mind.

Doing business in the Arab World

It’s so hard for type eight people to sit and wait for the Lord. That’s the test of faithfulness: to sit and wait for the Lord.

The hard thing for me has been, but I have a business, but I’m also working with team and other cross-cultural workers, and they’re working with the poor, and I’m working with the wealthy. I’m getting paid, and they’re not. And there can be a weirdness.

A lot of times, I feel like I’m not doing enough because I’m not sitting for hours and hours drinking tea with people.

If these women trust you with their body, they will trust you with much, much more.

My relationship with these women has been very beneficial because many of the women’s husbands are leaders and people of position and influence.

The comparison trap

Perhaps the uniqueness is that I’m a woman doing this, and it’s more common that it’s a man doing what I’m doing and making the money.

The uniqueness of doing this as a wife, mother, and woman is that there are so many hats, and there’s an identity question: who am I? Am I the businesswoman? Am I the missionary? Am I the mom? Am I the wife?

I have felt for 20 years on the field that I have to justify what I’m doing.

I’m more realistic now and more hopeful than I ever have been before, and the judgment has decreased as I get closer to eternity.

Thinking about holistic health on the field

We are very compartmentalized. If we want to take a holistic approach, all of these things are our spiritual life, which affects our physical health, which affects our emotional health, and our community health.

If we want to take care of this temple – our bodies – that needs to include our nutrition, our sleep health, our emotional health, our physical health, because they all do relate to one another.

If you struggle with an eating disorder as a young girl, you’re going to take that onto the field. They will, I promise you.

The innocent glass of wine turns into drinking by yourself.

We need to provide more opportunities for people on the field to get healthy.

I put them into the categories of fitness, nutrition, and stress management. All these things need to be addressed, and the healthiest way to do that is in a team situation.

The lie I used to believe is that God just cares about my spiritual life and what I’m doing for him.

My husband can see these women coming into my home studio, and they come depressed, and they leave jumping with joy.

God is pleased when we take care of ourselves; when we honor him with our bodies.

Another trap we fall into is that we think, I’ve served the Lord all day, and so this one little thing is for me.

HALT

Hungry

Angry

Lonely

Tired

If I’m tired or hungry or lonely or angry, I’m going to make bad decisions.

Take stock of your life and if you’re noticing an area that you’re not telling anybody about, you’re hiding, you’re lying to yourself about it, like oh this isn’t a big thing, but you’re not willing to tell somebody about it, if you’re obsessing about and it’s taking a lot of time and your behavior starts to change, you have an issue you need to take care of.

I’m not gonna believe a lie that I have to do these things in order to feel good about myself.

Setting boundaries, making a schedule, getting accountability, and limiting social media.

Loneliness, there’s another huge thing that people on the field are suffering from.

Stress Management

We need stress. We need some amount of bacteria so our immune system will kick in and do the job it’s supposed to do.

The number one thing I see that missionaries don’t get enough of is sleep.

The second thing missionaries need to do is move—movement of any kind. Get your steps in, for me, it’s lifting weights.

The third thing is your food and nutrition. These are lifestyle factors. It’s about things that we can control—everyday decisions.

Don’t get isolated. Watch out that you’re not living alone and doing things alone, and just having one-way conversations with social media.

Recreation

We need active recovery. Walking as a form of rest helps us recover faster. Go into a pool and have fun. These are things that are stress relieving.

It takes about 10 days to unwind and then another week to get rejuvenated.

God does not promise us health and longevity, and if we’re not careful, it can become an idol or a god to us.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 What does music have to do with missions?
• 5:30 The value of the ship’s ministry
• 10:07 Boundaries in missions
• 16:14 Transitioning to the home office
• 20:20 Ministry Partner Development
• 38:07 Staying close to the Father

The value of the ship’s ministry

Two weeks after we bought our house, the pastor came to our church. He had been on one of the ships and thought we should be involved in missions. I told him, “I just bought a house. I do Christian music. I’m not an evangelist. I’ve never been to seminary. What does music have to do with missions? Get out of my life.”

I’m not a risk-taker.

The value of the ship’s ministry

Three reasons the ship is still relevant

1. The international community
2. Travel opportunities for people all over the world
3. The ministry opportunities

The ship is the “best and worst of times.”  It’s a workaholic’s dream and also nightmare.

Keeping boundaries. We could actually have the shop raise our kids and hardly ever see them. So we had to be intentional with our kids and making time for us as a family.

Boundaries in missions

It’s so counter-cultural to take time to rest.

I had several burnouts in those four and a half years because I said yes to so many things. Especially at Christmas.

The lesson learned is for me to go, “I don’t care what people think. I need to say no. I need to take this time for sabbath. For family time.”

The ship was like a pressure cooker; it boils out the impurities, and they come to the surface, and that happened for us for sure on the ship.

Our marriage was in the toilet. How do we navigate keeping a good face out front in our marriage when it’s in the toilet?

Transitioning to the home office

I came back to our home country and had a decision to make: where do we go?

There was an opportunity in the home office, and I have these weird hats. I have the one hat that’s for an administrative and detailed organization, kind of person , but also I’m creative and a musician. And there was need for both of those in the home office.

We moved here in 1991 and have served in that office for over 30 years in a variety of roles.

One of the questions I wrestled with was, what will our support level be when we return to our home country?

Ministry Partner Development (MPD)

For the last 25 years, I’ve been passionate about seeing people become fully funded.

There is a book I use called Personal Support Matters, by Myles Wilson and Claire Niclasen.

A lot of people that are on the field feel stuck. They don’t have any hope. They don’t know how to get out of their low support. The first thing is to get a coach. Get a support-raising coach.

Another thing is to steward your partners well. Keep those newsletters coming. Quarterly minimum. Get those out.

Seeing ministry partners as part of your ministry.

We have people that I probably wouldn’t be friends with today if they were my financial partners.

Many times, the coach will have the faith that the missionary doesn’t have.

Be prepared. How much more per month do I need in my support? Have that ready. And if there are any projects that I’m looking to raise funds for, have that amount and know how to explain the project and why I want to raise funds for the project. Have those two things ready!

I coach some people in Europe, and the principles are the same. I’m excited about what God has called me to do, and I’m reaching out to people that I know and love. I’m inviting them in to partner with me and God, to make an impact in this world.

In Ministry Partner Development, it’s one by one by one.

Staying close to the Father

Time alone with God. Reading. Praying. Listening. Having good, male friends that I can be open and honest with. Attending the local church. Those are things that help me stay alive.

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:00 Keith Green and the unreached
• 07:50 The logic of the Insider Movement
• 14:11 Going fully into the Insider Movement
• 18:06 Contextualizing without compromising
• 21:45 What it’s like to live under the law
• 28:10 What it was like for his wife
• 35:10 The tension of not sharing the same calling 
• 41:30 My wife said, “I’m done. I’m out.”
•  47:28 Advice for struggling workers